Streak's Blog

Patrick Nielsen Hayden (an editor of science ficti...

2012-05-26T00:20:40.513-05:00

Patrick Nielsen Hayden (an editor of science fiction for Tor) arrives at a similar conclusion via a different route:

The problem is that in order to spur economic development, we created a class of human organizations that are sociopathic. Our army of killer robots has made it clear: they work for themselves, not for us, and they will break the world.

Coming late to the party: Steve said: "....

2012-05-21T07:40:39.433-05:00
Coming late to the party:

Steve said:

"...but we live in a secular society and there is no justifiable reason to prohibit gay marriage. The latest scare I have been hearing is that churches will somehow be forced to perform gay marriages. I honestly don't know if there has been a push for this (I somehow doubt it), but it would not pass constitutional muster.

The reality is that, for the purposes of the state, the religious component of the marriage doesn't matter. A marriage done by a minister is no more valid than one done by a sea captain, justice of the peace, or a person that ordered a certificate over the internet."

I just have to say: BAM! That pretty much sums up the stupidity of this battle.

That is interesting, Steve. My sense from most Re...

2012-05-20T09:47:21.497-05:00
That is interesting, Steve. My sense from most Republicans, actually, is that they don't trust government. That applies to most things, and they say that government is always inefficient and private enterprise is always more efficient. The only things they don't complain about are the military and death penalty.

No doubt the eyewitness testimony is part of this, but I think the bigger thing is that most supporters simply don't think that innocent people will be harmed, and that, theoretically, the death penalty is a deterrent. And because of some of the class and race issues here, white, middle class privilege means never fearing that this will be used on them.

Bob, that is strange, but I think that most fans o...

2012-05-20T09:07:45.289-05:00
Bob, that is strange, but I think that most fans of the death penalty are ok with most "government" activities. They are just selective as to what they think is necessary. I would guess that they are fine with police, fire, and the military. They probably oppose entitlements.

The only people I know that are die-hard, small government are some libertarians and anarchists.

Personally, I am more puzzled by people that are critical of activist judges and our legal system full of loopholes, but are comfortable with giving it the power to kill.

Bob, if what they actually think is that governmen...

2012-05-18T12:11:47.135-05:00
Bob, if what they actually think is that government is ineffective and poorly run when it comes to guaranteeing white/straight/male hegemony, that is consistent, if appalling.

It amazes me that those who say that Government is...

2012-05-18T10:50:08.028-05:00
It amazes me that those who say that Government is ineffective and poorly run have the confidence in Government to put the right guy to death.

Most jurors give eyewitness testimony great weight...

2012-05-17T07:21:23.443-05:00
Most jurors give eyewitness testimony great weight. It is very unfortunate, considering all the evidence of how unreliable it is.

And yet to this day many people believe that eyewi...

2012-05-16T21:01:20.862-05:00
And yet to this day many people believe that eyewitness testimony is not at all a weak, problematic form of evidence. Sad.

Leighton, I agree that it is problematic to speak ...

2012-05-15T12:26:05.123-05:00
Leighton, I agree that it is problematic to speak for God and it certainly better, IMO, if church doctrine was not mixed with public policy.

Streak, I do think the community should get a say. Personally, I feel I better understand religion when I discuss it with others. Unfortunately, people often just try and associate with like-minded people. The greedy will find other greedy believers and ignore the ones who are more generous. I think it was CS Lewis (paraphrasing here) that pointed out people tend to gravitate towards the parts of the Bible that reinforce their belief system and avoid the parts that challenge them.

That being said, I think there are people that are anti-gay for whatever the reason and they associate and gravitate towards a belief system that supports this. I don't think religion is the only factor. I didn't really know any gay people until my late teens. Almost all of them I met while working at various church camps. These people were, for the most part, out in the open.

That has always been my frustration with the relat...

2012-05-15T11:17:56.378-05:00
That has always been my frustration with the relationship model. It internalizes everything, and creates a situation where the only person who knows what God thinks is the individual. The community doesn't get to say.

Good example is greed. My conservative friends say that they too think greed is bad, but define it as someone loving money more than God. But guess who gets to decide that? The person.

Of course, that is often dismissed when the prophetic word is somehow opposite political considerations. A woman who says that God called her to preach is often not taken seriously. And certainly gay people who say that God made them gay, or brought them together with their gay soulmate--can't believe that.

I do think there's a practical difference betw...

2012-05-15T11:01:44.790-05:00
I do think there's a practical difference between speaking normatively or persuasively, versus speaking coercively. I think it would be abusive for me to tell you that God wants you to do/say/think anything that (s)he hasn't personally told you. That's essentially what imposing doctrine on the public sphere entails.

This isn't an easy position for me to take, atheism notwithstanding. Even as a nonbeliever, I have appreciated the depth and fervor of the prophetic tradition, wherein believers have taken it upon themselves to declare woe unto the oppressive powers who trample the poor to enrich themselves. Some of Fred Clark's posts to this effect have been masterful. But when the oppressors simply respond, "No, I'm following God's commands myself," there isn't any effective rebuttal to that, since both claims are made in the absence of evidence.

It's true that prophetic diatribes are done less to persuade the oppressors to change their ways, and more to unite the oppressed. But these days, at least in Christendom in the U.S., there is a critical mass of...well, "agnostic" is the wrong word, and "unprincipled" has connotations I don't intend, but believers who just want to get along, for whom unity in the church is their first priority. They will tend to try to bridge the gap between the oppressors and the oppressed by not actually condemning the abusive actions of the oppressors. So these diatribes aren't as effective as they used to be. Better to stick to secular means if you hope to reform a society. (Reforming a church, though? All bets are off.)

I wouldn't say that all of our problems are ou...

2012-05-15T09:48:05.553-05:00
I wouldn't say that all of our problems are our fault, though I am sure that many are. The response to that, I suppose, would be that we live in a "fallen world" and that bad things happen and will continue to happen.

I agree that it doesn't seem possible for God to speak clearly with people. I certainly can't claim and clear and obvious communication. I would also agree that it is dangerous/stupid for people to claim and speak on God's behalf.

I think there are some places where it may be possible to use God's wishes or rules, such as within a church or family, but I don't think it works on a societal or governmental level.

Steve, off-topic, but I've never been impresse...

2012-05-15T09:29:05.962-05:00
Steve, off-topic, but I've never been impressed by the traditional responses to the problem of evil. Pretty sure the existence of polio and typhoid don't have a lot to do with the choices humans have made.

If God doesn't have the ability or interest to communicate in real time, I can certainly work with that; that seems functionally equivalent to atheism in that it puts humans in the position of having to collaborate to resolve our own issues because there's nobody else who can show us how. Which is essentially how I tend to view our situation anyway. So let's get to work, etc.

My point was that it seems fair to say that even if a person believes in God, it does not seem reasonable or appropriate for them to talk about a relationship with God that involves clear communication. Nor does it seem reasonable or appropriate to talk about God being upset with people who (mis)represent him - were the writers of the Constitution alive, I have no doubt that some of them would relish the chance to publish snarky editorials refuting some of the sillier interpretations people have come up with over the centuries. I don't see any realm in which God's hypothetical wishes are appropriate to use coercively, for any purpose. Like you, I'd rather just stick to arguing things on a secular level.

I also doubt there's anything to the urban legend that churches will be forced to perform gay marriages. It's awfully suspicious that groups that shout the loudest about truth have so little regard for it.

There has always been an argument that the state s...

2012-05-15T08:07:37.112-05:00
There has always been an argument that the state should only be involved in civil unions for all of us, and let the individual churches decide what constitutes "marriage." Times like this, I think that would be a decent idea.

I spent yesterday grading, so was unable to join in. Love the points both Smitty and Leighton made about understanding and communicating with God. I have made this point to a good friend of mine, that evangelicals who talk about communicating with God have demonstrated almost without doubt that that communication is, at best, completely unreliable. Unless we accept that God is some kind of racist and sexist who hates his own creation.

Of course, there is, as Steve points out, still room for belief. I wish that people would at least question that relationship model where they claim to know the mind of God. But it gives them something. Which, I wouldn't mind, except then we get it pushed as a reason to back x public policy initiative.

Of course there is this whole free will thing. Fr...

2012-05-15T06:45:08.687-05:00
Of course there is this whole free will thing. From what I understand, things aren't always supposed to be nice and rosy. Better people have tackled this question and answered it. Religious institutions, like any other institutions run by people, have the potential to fall short. Not a day goes by that one doesn't show some kind of failure or harm. I hear the same argument by ultraconservatives when they look at government. They point out some fraud or waste and call for entire agencies and departments to be scrapped.

I know that faiths are different from governments and I am certainly not trying to change anyone's mind, but I would say that if you put your faith entirely in the "church", then you will be let down eventually. That being said, there will always be people that claim to act in accordance with their faith that are just trying to justify some bad action.

So why doesn't God come down and correct people? I don't know. Would it make a difference? Look at the Constitution. People have always been disagreeing with what it says. There were even bitter disagreements and court cases in the years immediately following it's adoption. You would think the authors would have been able to explain, "hey, this is what we meant." They did and people still disagreed.

As for the OT, I am disappointed that states (even my own) are doing this stuff. Normally, I would say it is a state issue, but now I think that the federal courts are going to have to step in to correct this.

While I don't agree, I can understand that there is a religious objection (in several faiths) to gay marriage. From what I can tell from the polling data, there are also some people that aren't all that religious that are just as opposed. Fine, but we live in a secular society and there is no justifiable reason to prohibit gay marriage. The latest scare I have been hearing is that churches will somehow be forced to perform gay marriages. I honestly don't know if there has been a push for this (I somehow doubt it), but it would not pass constitutional muster.

The reality is that, for the purposes of the state, the religious component of the marriage doesn't matter. A marriage done by a minister is no more valid than one done by a sea captain, justice of the peace, or a person that ordered a certificate over the internet.

Thanks, Smitty. I have no doubt that a lot of it...

2012-05-14T23:18:03.087-05:00
Thanks, Smitty.

I have no doubt that a lot of it is about prestige, but I think even among less ambitious, more individually secure types, it can be just a simple reluctance to learn to communicate in different ways. Homophobic people (usually) know how to behave appropriately around heterosexual parents, but not a pair of fathers. Why should life force them to learn something they don't want to learn?

Things like this are why I tend to see more value in being a sort of evangelist for clear communication than in poking at faith. Sure, if God saved us from his followers, we'd have a lot to talk about. But we have so much to talk about as it is, right now.

this is really about preserving white, straigh...

2012-05-14T12:19:46.620-05:00
this is really about preserving white, straight privilege, and it's most useful to keep the discussion there

Another "amen." The tangent was fun, and as always your insight and the way you talk about things adds so much to this blog.

On topic: every talking point can really come down to that point of view. Gay marriage and gay relationships don't *actually* harm marriage. Nobody gets divorced because gays can love. What it does is acknowledge "other-ness." Nothing threatens one's Important Place In History more than having to acknowledge "others" are actually equal. If they are, then by gosh, one actually has to *compete* rather than just having to assume the top of the privilege pyramid!

Thus, every issue that acknowledges the equal status of "others" becomes a battleground: civil rights of the 60s era; civil rights of our modern era/gay marriage; anti-bullying; access to education; the list goes on.

It's the reversal of premise 1 that gets me. &...

2012-05-14T11:09:01.431-05:00
It's the reversal of premise 1 that gets me. "We can definitely know God's meaning or thoughts" - maybe perfectly a la fundamentalism, maybe imperfectly and at most as much as we know though the thoughts of a person who isn't ourselves, but probably only through a glass darkly, a la the versions of Christianity that lead to treating others well.

But if it's possible to know what God wants (however imprecisely), how come people disagree so much about it? Fundamentalists think it's because people rebel against God's clear will. Well, if I thought there were such a thing as Gary's God, I would certainly rebel, as would anyone else with the thinnest, most fragile ethical fiber in their being. Simple assertion, simple response. But what puzzles me is, if God is actually like people like, say, Fred Clark at Slacktivist claim he is (and bear in mind, I agree with almost all of their social views), why all the disagreement?

Either God isn't capable of communicating clearly; or he doesn't care that people misunderstand him (i.e. he is grieved that people use his name to spread hatred, but somehow just doesn't care that ordinary people often see their deepest loyalty toward their parents, spouses and children as being contingent on their trampling the ability of gay people to love similarly); or there is something else going on entirely.

"Ask and ye shall receive" is a false promise (how many children starve to death every day?), "Seek and ye shall find" is a false promise (how many are driven to despair and suicide by not being able to find the love they need?), "Knock and the door will be opened" is a false promise (how many seek shelter from violence and abuse only to be cut down?). Open theism explains a lot of these issues for believers who want to engage the full spectrum of issues here, though to my mind it doesn't explain why it wouldn't occur to God incarnate to say "Hey, don't make up this crap about me - it's going to seriously interfere with the ability of your descendants to love each other."

Anyway, enough on that tangent. I think if the Religious Right actually cared about God informing their politics, this would be a useful discussion topic. But as Streak points out, this is really about preserving white, straight privilege, and it's most useful to keep the discussion there.

or there are other mitigating circumstances suc...

2012-05-14T10:41:40.207-05:00
or there are other mitigating circumstances such as nonexistence to explain this

Not to be glib, but Amen, leighton.

I cannot get over this "logic:"
1) We can never know God's true meaning or thoughts.
2) God hates that thing you're doing and he wants us to do this thing instead.

Wait. Wait. We can't know his thoughts or motivations...but we CAN tell that he hates this thing? Based on what again? Oh, this book written by people who got it from some other dudes?

Oh...AND we can have multiple translations? The Living Word bible? The New Modern bible? The Revised Western Standard? King James?

Oh, but *each* of those bibles is somehow, though vastly different...blessed and sanctioned as the truth?

No...no...sorry...you're making it up.

Smitty, that's basically my view too. Part of ...

2012-05-14T09:24:51.376-05:00
Smitty, that's basically my view too. Part of the reason I left the faith is that too many people who claim to be in a close relationship with God/Jesus act like that. Which means God is either among the universe's worst communicators, or there are other mitigating circumstances such as nonexistence to explain this.

I sometimes feel like responding, but it's not...

2012-05-14T08:45:51.840-05:00
I sometimes feel like responding, but it's not like I'm gonna change the minds of guys like Gary. It's not like I am gonna come up with some brilliant sentence that causes him to smack his forehead and say "ZOMG, I never thought of it that way! I relent!"

Now, if Gary had displayed an eagerness to learn or even to debate a point but an openness to change, it'd be worth it. But we're not budging. He's not budging. He's just gonna wave his very special "proud heritage" flag and thank God he can still be a bigot.

This Barna study needs to be stated over and over:

The vast majority of non-Christians — 91% — said Christianity had an anti-gay image, followed by 87% who said it was judgmental and 85% who said it was hypocritical.

Such views were held by smaller percentages of the active churchgoers, but the faith still did not fare well: 80% agreed with the anti-gay label, 52% said Christianity is judgmental, and 47% declared it hypocritical.

How does the non-Christian world view Christians? How do Christians view Christianity?

Anti-gay.

That's it. Not "helps people" or "finds truth" or "feeds the hungry" or "establishes a community." Anti-gay.

You and the other proud bigots.

2012-05-13T13:27:45.285-05:00
You and the other proud bigots.

I live in NC. I eagerly voted FOR the NC Marriage...

2012-05-13T07:01:36.785-05:00
I live in NC. I eagerly voted FOR the NC Marriage Protection Amendment. Thank God it passed. Times may change, people's opinions may change, but God ordained marriage to be the union of one man and one woman, and that has not changed.

Most of mankind is in rebellion against God. Always have been. The attempts to change marriage is one more evidence of that.

Gary

If you are trying to impress me, you should know I...

2012-05-04T06:36:11.513-05:00
If you are trying to impress me, you should know I don't really care for Sully. : )

That being said, I did agree that there are problems with the GOP. Despite having voted for them plenty of times in the past, I am not going to any time soon (except maybe at the local or state level).

NPR had something on this the other day and it was...

2012-05-04T06:31:48.623-05:00
NPR had something on this the other day and it was compelling. I think there is room to look at and criticize regulations and laws that hurt or only benefit a select few, but the answer isn't to completely gut the system. People talk about the founding fathers, but forget that their were environmental laws back in the 18th century.