Several have contributed great comments here on my post on the magical moments. I think some clarifications are in order, because Chloe brings up some good points about the violence that often accompanies drinking. As I noted in the original post, alcohol isn't the magical elixir here. I have also experienced terrible bar moments. But Brandon makes the point clear in his own followup, noting that he and others "have been put off by the fact that it feels like we both find community more forthcoming at places of meeting other than churches." That is the point. It isn't that you need to add alcohol to church, but somehow get that sense of honest exchange and community that can happen in a bar or coffee house.
One other story. I have Episcopalian friends and one invited me to something called "wild man." Every month, the guys in the church met on Friday night and grilled steaks and had a cooler of beer in the fellowship room. One night, we did get into a rather vocal argument about race, American foreign policy and politics. A much older man looked like he wanted to challenge me to a Zell Miller-like duel for my criticism of our Latin American policy. The priest and another man had a shouting match on the nature of racism (the priest thought everyone is partially racist--the other man really objected). All in all, I would say that it was a rough night, but many of them included great conversations.
Story addendum: I told family members about this monthly ritual--family members who are Baptists. One looked concerned, but said something about moderation and how he agreed that Baptists had gotten overly uptight about drinking. The other one looked at me and said, "if it were cheap beer, it would be wrong."
4 comments:
Good thoughts, Streak.
Brandon
Reading the comments I can't help but think of the different images that come to my mind by mentioning a “bar” versus a “pub”. While often the two categories don’t draw much distinction in the US, in other places such as Australia or the United Kingdom, a pub often can be quieter and more conducive to conversation. Often they are even family oriented places catering more to a neighborhood crowd. Granted, alcohol is served at both, and there are rowdy pubs. However, in reading Streak’s post I pictured more of a pub setting. Several mates sitting around in a relaxed atmosphere, sipping a pint, enjoying each other’s company, and discussing whatever came to mind. I have no doubt that many folks can find such exchange elsewhere, but for some people this pub setting can be a nice catalyst for an enjoyable, relaxed outing. All of this is, of course, with the caveat of “moderation, moderation, in all things moderation”. A pint or two is often helpful for many of those raised in a conservative evangelical background to be able to shed the shell of “correctness” and really share what’s on their minds. There have been churches that lack an atmosphere of safety in wrestling with issues, questions, doubts, and possible “edge of the envelop” type conversations. The PUB, however……
Chloe,
I really don't see why we should stop talking about bars as a place of meeting. Because YOU don't like going to them? I appreciate and respect that decision of yours, but make the translation. There's nothing particularly spectacular about a bar that makes it the topic of our discussion. That said, it's just a place that community has happened for us. We've encountered this thing which we seek at a bar, so that's how we'll talk about it. You've encountered it elsewhere, great! Let's not make a mountain out of a molehill.
I think the distinction between Pub and Bar would be a good one to hear more about. I think that therein lies the key to where the magic resides.
Brandon
Chloe,
I appreciate the comments, but think that you are reading hostility into Brandon's comments. You did ask why we were still talking about bars, after all.
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