BTW, I love it when defenders of Imus say he isn't racist. I am sorry, but if you make that kind of joke about these black women, you are a racist. Just as you are when you make this kind of comment about someone like Ifill.
Trash Talk Radio - New York Times: "The serial apologies of Mr. Imus, who was suspended yesterday by both NBC News and CBS Radio for his remarks, have failed another test. The sincerity seems forced and suspect because he’s done some version of this several times before.
I know, because he apparently did it to me.
I was covering the White House for this newspaper in 1993, when Mr. Imus’s producer began calling to invite me on his radio program. I didn’t return his calls. I had my hands plenty full covering Bill Clinton.
Soon enough, the phone calls stopped. Then quizzical colleagues began asking me why Don Imus seemed to have a problem with me. I had no idea what they were talking about because I never listened to the program.
It was not until five years later, when Mr. Imus and I were both working under the NBC News umbrella — his show was being simulcast on MSNBC; I was a Capitol Hill correspondent for the network — that I discovered why people were asking those questions. It took Lars-Erik Nelson, a columnist for The New York Daily News, to finally explain what no one else had wanted to repeat.
“Isn’t The Times wonderful,” Mr. Nelson quoted Mr. Imus as saying on the radio. “It lets the cleaning lady cover the White House.”"
24 comments:
Imus is an ass, but I also hold his employers responsible for his comments. He is hired to be a shock jock, so he's supposed be inflammatory. He's clearly a jerk, but what would he be without a paid forum to air his remarks? My problem is with the corporate and political hacks that enable him and those like him.
If anyone cares to read it, One of our writers on Highbrid Nation actually worked wit Imus over the last few years at WFAN and had some really interesting things to say about the whole situation with Imus and he also has some inside info that the media hasn't mentioned about the whole story.
Imus is right wing? I thought he was just a shock jock. I have never listened to him for more than a few minutes and really didn't care for him.
I have noticed several things in readin about this on other blogs. Some are saying it is ok because of the hypocrisy of Sharpton and Jackson or that rap stars use that kind of language. Frankly I think that is a weak argument. Something isn't made right because of the person complaining about it or the fact that other people say something similar.
The other thing that struck me is that society will tolerate hateful speech that targets certain groups, but not others. I worked with the mentally ill for years and have noticed that they are fair targets for many.
I followed the link to the Highbrid blog and would disagree. The media I read and watch has reported Imus's previous use of racist language AND has reported all of his charity work. The issue of whether blacks should use racist and demeaning language is a separate issue, in my book, and largely irrelevant to Imus' behavior. There is nothing that can defend his disparagement of that basketball team.
I agree with ubub, this is exactly what the talk radio circuit wants, and the Limbaughs, Hannities and O'Reillys are hardly better and the Michael Savage and others are just as bad if not worse.
Steve, I agree. We are often more tolerant of hate speech toward some groups.
This from Crooks and Liars: "Michael Smerconish: If you understand the context—-I don't interpret it as a racist statement per se…
However, we've also have a society on our hands that we have people walking around–anxious to be offended.."
Yeah, it wasn't racist at all to refer to black women as "nappy" and "hos." Nothing racist about that, and if they took it as racist it is because they are looking for reasons to be offended. I knew this guy was a tool, but that is unbelievable.
I am offended that you are offended. I was just waiting to use that.
Hah.
I agree that the comment was racist. I disagree that that makes Imus inherently racist as well. I've made racist comments in the past, told ethnic jokes (including those about my own ethnicity). I don't believe there is a racist bone in my body. Were his remarks reprehensible? Yes. I believe the suspension is appropriate, and am glad the Rutgers women have agreed to meet with him. His career should not be ruined over this. He has had characters on his show that covered every racial and religious background. I agree with ubub, he is and always has been a shock jock, paid to push the limits. He's bordered the limits in the past, and yes he's gone overboard before. Many comedians and shock jocks have. Hell, Howard Stern has made more money than Imus with the same type of humor! Imus has changed his show significantly over the past 5-10 years to more of a political commentary show. He has had many prominent politicians, journalists, and other celebrities, black and white, as regular guests on his show. Nobody has complained until this comment. Imus did not make this comment in the context of a comedy bit, he did it as part of their normal back and forth banter. That is what made it even harder to swallow. He should be, and is being, punished. His offense, compared to many others, including those of Sharpton and Jackson, is minor.
Streak, I have to strongly disagree with you that the use of racial language by blacks is a separate issue. It goes right to the heart of the matter. Imus is being vilified by Al Sharpton, a man who caused pain in many lives with the Tawana Brawley mess, and has to date issued not a single apology. He called a Jewish business owner a white interloper and suggested that his business be torched - which it was. He at first denied being there, then defended his language. Chris Rock gets paid millions to get on stage and make fun of white people with terms such as "crackers". Singers and rap artists constantly use hateful, racist language in their lyrics. Where are the calls to stop buying their products, boycotts and pickets of the companies who pubish their dreck, which is FAR worse than what Imus said? It all fosters a culture that makes Imus' comments part of the mainstream entertainment media. Is it right? No. But that's the way it is, and that is the way we have let it become. Part of this is political correctness run amuck. Most of Imus' comedy bits on his show are genuinely funny. Rob Bartlett impersonating AG Gonzales is beyond hysterical - even though he uses an Hispanic accent to characterize him. Part of this has to do with the culture generated by the mainstream media. It has to change across the board, including in the black community. If they don't clean up their own house, how can they expect everyone around them to clean up?
Imus has apologized, and has continually demonstrated he is a man of his word. I believe he will make changes, and I believe he will be sincere about it. He's not hiding behind his past drug and alcohol addiction, or running to rehab like tons of other celebrities. He is dealing with this like a man, face to face with the people he offended. I will continue to listen to his show when he returns.
Sorry for the rant, but this has been bugging me ever since this blew up in the press.
JoeG,
Thanks for the comment. I will respond more later, but I think there is a fundamental disagreement over the ideas of race and power. The historical nature of Imus' remarks really make this issue the painful one that it is. Had we actually addressed race (well, better than we have) those comments could be compared (in my view) to similar uses of derogatory language. But I am not sure that is true.
At the fundamental level, I think Imus' remark in this case was simply not funny.
Agreed wholeheartedly on the not funny part. Looking forward to your future comments.
Joe, I think my original comment stands. Race is not just about bigotry, but about power. I am not saying we overlook bigotry, but the white/black relationship cannot be simply ignored. All insults are not equal. Whites commenting on physical characteristics of blacks don't occur in a vacuum, and are not the same thing as rappers rhyming about butt sizes. I am not a fan of rap, and don't like the misogyny included in much of that, but that is not the same thing, in my opinion. And, like I suggested, is worthy of a separate discussion.
But making these racist comments the same thing as the others you mentioned only works if the historical slate is clean and the playing ground equal.
One more thing, Joe. I certainly won't judge your views on race, but I can tell you that I have also said racist things and told racist jokes. And when I did that, I was racist. Racism, in my view, isn't like virginity--we aren't either racist or free of racism--it is something we battle. Like you, I have said things that were clearly intended to be humor and had no racist intentions in them. But I can certainly say that I have said and thought and said things that betrayed deep seated fears and bigotry that I would rather not acknowledge. I do have racist bones in my body and have to battle those weaknesses from betraying me.
So, when I hear people say that Imus is not a racist, I think back to my own experience--I read what he said about Gwen Ifill, the Williams sisters, and the "joke" about those black women players takes a darker tone than I suspect even he realizes. He may not think he is a racist and those around him may not think he is. But I am not as sure. Just as I am not as sure about myself.
You make some excellent points Streak. I openly admit to having those moments of inner fear as well, and it has made me question myself on the subject. So maybe there are a few racist bones somewhere in me after all. I have a Spanish last name, my dad's side is from Spain. I get bent out of shape that I am referred to as Hispanic, as I am not from Mexico/Latin America. Mostly because it focuses on my name and ignores the other half of my cultural background - Italian. But part of me wonders sometimes if I just don't want to be associated with the "stereotypical Hispanic". I don't think that's it, but sometimes I wonder.
However, I think we will have to agree to disagree on the other topic. I think the issue of racially charged language within all communities must be had together, not separately. The culture in the rap and hip hop community of using the "N" word, "ho", and other similar language fosters a cross-cultural standard that says this is OK. The music is enjoyed by white and black people alike. Chris Rock doesn't perform for blacks only. If he makes a crack against whites or blacks, it is "OK" and "funny". If a white member of his audience went out and repeated one of his jokes, they'd be strung up. But they thought it was alright because Chris Rock said it. And that's not right. The language needs to be cleared up on all sides in order for there to be an effective outcome to this discussion. I totally get what you say about power, and do agree with that based on the history of the relationship between whites and blacks. I still feel that both sides need to work together to clean up their acts, and work together toward getting this language out of our overall vocabulary.
Good discussion Streak, thanks for sharing your thoughts so openly. We don't disagree often, but the conversation is always civil when we do! :)
Joe,
Thanks for the response. I understand your point, and I am not trying to defend rap and hip hop (though I find Chris Rock hilarious), but merely trying to say that things aren't equal. Euro Americans disparaged Blacks as inferior for a few centuries and as such, have little credibility to challenge racial language. Reminds me of the Seinfeld when Kramer takes the vow of silence. "Starting now!" we will not be racist. But we were fine with it for 300 years.
BTW, I find the entire Imus thing really annoying--at least in how it has been covered. MSNBC is covering it as if Imus is the world, and watching David Gregory defend his friend is really annoying. I also think that there are many other talk show hosts who are worse--including Rush and Michael Savage.
Looks like Imus is gone. I wonder what will happen now. As for racist language, I had a discussion with one of my friends the other day on the exact same thing you are discussing. I tend to agree that some entertainers (of all races) tend to use harsh langaunge and can be offensive. I doubt I could come up with all the "rules," but one thing that seems to be generally ok is self-depracating humor. Borat (Sascha Baron Cohen) can sing "Throw the Jew Down the Well" and it is funny because we know he is not serious. If an Iranian comedian did the same song, most people would question the motives and there would be a great deal of anger.
One the comedy note, there does seem to be a fair amoung of leeway when it comes to what comics can say. It depends on the context and how they say it, which Michael Richards found out. South Park makes fun of pretty much everything. For whatever reason, I have never found them to be offensive.
I don't listen to Rush, but what racist language does he use? Michael Savage offends my intellect, so I can't listen to him. I was listening to him go off on protestors and suggesting that they be tried for sedition. What an idiot!
What will likely happen now, Steve, is Imus will either get on to satellite radio, or ride out the storm and get back onto mainstream radio. We haven't heard the last of him. Every poll I've seen has close to 75% saying CBS and MSNBC went too far, that the suspension would have been enough. And for CBS to drop the bomb in the middle of a multi-million dollar charity radiothon is just appalling. If they really wanted to make a difference and hold him up as an example, they would have made him stay on the air and keep his word to clean up his show and do more toward promoting better race relations. And then fire him if he reneged and went back to the same old thing. THAT would be intelligent, productive punishment, and I'd find few outside of Sharpton and Jackson who would have a problem with that solution.
Streak, I think Gregory is standing up for Imus because few others are. He and Imus are close friends, so I don't find it annoying in the least that he is supporting him as he is. Finks like Harold Ford, Jr. need to be called out for hiding. Imus endured death threats supporting Ford's senatorial campaign. Ford was a frequent guest, milking the spotlight. Now Imus gets in trouble over a racist comment, and Ford, who is black, runs away. That is annoying. He could have shown support while still criticizing the remark.
Yeah, Joe, I heard Imus' response to Ford. Mike Greenberg on ESPN radio had an interesting comment the other day. Imus apologized, but not immediately. His first response to it was to tell people to relax. He only apologized when the storm got hot. And as many have noted, this is not the first time. Again, he called Gwen Ifill the "cleaning lady" and said that the Williams sisters belonged in National Geographic.
That said, as Jon Stewart joked last night, Imus is hardly the only or worst person on the air. But, to a certain degree, I am tiring of the Imus as victim argument here. Even yesterday on the air, he couldn't stop from badmouthing everyone who criticized him, even as he said that everyone had to "stop whining."
BTW, Joe, I am not intending to be disagreeable, but I simply find Imus difficult to defend.
Steve, Rush may not use racist language, but he has no problem mocking any and all he wants. Who can forget his mocking of Michael J. Fox? Michael Savage once told a caller to "catch aids and die." Glenn Beck told our Muslim congressman that he wanted to ask him if he was working for our enemies. Nancy Grace--oh never mind. All of her stuff is horrible.
Glen Beck is an idiot, too. There are plenty of nasty people on TV and the radio. Besides the ones you mention, there is Rosie O. I just had to throw in a lefty to be fair ; ) Looking at the ratings of the View, Howard Stern, and various others, it seems that we won't be rid of that format any time soon.
I was talking to a friend today about Rosie. I agree, she is an idiot. I think Beck is more dangerous because he acts nice. But he isn't.
I will say that I rarely add to these people's ratings. I used to watch Imus occassionally in the morning because there was little else on before heading into work, but I stopped doing that too. I rarely listen to radio beyond NPR.
But I guess I am not in their target demographic either. I am not really sure what Rosie is doing on the View and I have never understood that show's appeal.
Streak -
As long as you have an ounce of testosterone in your body, you will never get The View! Rosie is there because she gets ratings. Period. And I agree with both you and Steve, even with Imus gone, the worst of the worst are still on the air: Opie and Anthony, back on after getting caught supervising a couple having sex in the St Patrick's Cathedral vestibule. Howard Stern, though at least he moved to satellite. You know the cast of characters.
I have two final points. One, I have always felt, and still do, that no matter how vile, rude or repugnant you find someone on the radio, the power lies in your hands to change the dial or turn the damn thing off. The more people that do that, the more the personality gets hurt. Ratings and money are the measure of corporate morality.
Second, I have enjoyed this debate, though I stand by my original position. I think Kiny Friedman put it best this weekend. He is one of Imus' best friends. He basically said (not a direct quote) there is no standing by what Imus said, for it is truly repugnant. But something ain't kosher in this country when one man gets fired and another wins a Grammy for using the exact same words. It is an issue that must be addressed, but it won't be. Days after vilifying Imus, Barack Obama meets with Ludacris to discuss youth and AIDS. Ludacris, who's latest album contains a song titled "Ho". Go check out the lyrics online if there is any question about context. Several uses of the"N" word as well. Yet Obama is disgusted that Imus used that word and offended his daughters? What a joke. I just lost all respect for Obama, and he certainly lost any potential for my vote.
Joe, I respect your viewpoint and completely understand. But I still would suggest that the use in rap is different than the usage by someone like Imus. Words and ideas don't transcend culture and time. They have different meanings and contexts. I hate the use of those words in rap, don't get me wrong, but there is a difference between the uses.
Sorry you lost respect for Obama. I would respectfully suggest that no one is going to be as consistent as you or I would like.
This is what I think: Moderator Ifill gets ready for Biden-Palin debate
Thanks for this post. I linked it in a comment tonight.
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