"GodMen is 'a place where men can discuss real issues such as passivity, isolation, and pornography 'in a safe environment.' The events, which include worship, have powerful sound systems and huge video screens showing he-man videos like martial arts displays and car chases.'"
December 26, 2007
Uh Oh.
I wonder if this constitutes a "blog attack." To the Bat Cave!
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79 comments:
I didnt see anything wrong with this article.
I thought you didnt want to argue about this anymore?
Ok. I really don't care any more. I found it interesting that Al Mohler found the godmen cartoonish, and that at their shows they like to show car crashes and martial arts--I guess to man the place up a bit.
Yes Al Mohlers comments were pretty interesting. You know Godmen defended him a few months later when he was in the heat over something...cant remember what it was now.
You know the other thing. Al Mohler admitted he never went, never watched, never read any materials put out by the Godmen, but only read an article put out by the LA Times and drew his opinion from the media...much like Tony did.
Hey besides what do you got against men speaking out against pornography and ect?
Never said there was anything wrong with that. I suggested that showing car crashes and martial arts exhibits reflects a pretty narrow view of masculinity--one certainly popular in the Nascar crowd, but not necessarily in any way representative of being male in America.
No where do they or anyone else say that is the only masculine expression. It is a generalization that you cant stand. Get over it.
It is a generalization that you cant stand. Get over it.
Yes. That is what a generalization is--it suggests it can speak for all of masculinity--or proper masculinity. After all, the Stine's think that the church has become feminized and their response is to bring NeckCar to the Church.
I am over it. I just have no respect for it.
from all your post you dont respect anything that anyone who doesnt agree with you.
Heh.
I think you are projecting your own issues here. I respect a lot of people with whom I disagree. I just don't respect what I read about Brad Stine or his thoughts on "wussies."
You will have to forgive me on that. I have spent too much time thinking deeply about masculinity to think that "car crashes" and "martial arts exhibitions" are actually representative of masculinity.
So what is masculinity? I would like to see your answer
You want me to define it?
Actually, I think the people who use car crashes and martial arts to entertain their men should define masculinity first.
I will concede. I don't think my not wanting to watch tractor pulls or car crashes makes me any less of a male. But Brad Stine might disagree. He might call me PC wuss.
You totally dont get them. They arent saying those things make you masculine.
I would still like hear what your definition of masculinity is.
They aren't saying those things make you masculine, but they have to have them at their little shows.
Ok.
yep cause it is cool and most guys like it. Whats the deal?
Ok, because I think it is juvenile. It really does suggest that those men need to not reclaim their masculinity. They need to grow up.
I actually have been thinking about masculinity--and the problem is, it is so damn hard to define. The characteristics of being male? Beyond anatomy, the characteristics are mostly culturally defined, FP, and that is what makes it so vexing. 100 years ago, we would have defined men in a different way. Men would have been considered better in business, politics, etc. Women would have been considered more moral and needing to make the home moral, and would have no interest in politics or business.
Now, in our contemporary world, that makes absolutely no sense. Women are in all the areas that men used to be. There is no longer a secure "male" world, and I think this is the issue that creates these men's movements. Since the rise of feminism, we have seen more and more of them--men trying to carve out some kind of unique world where they are not competing with or answering to women. And as long as it is that kind of impulse, it is that much harder to take seriously.
I understand the complex issues involved in defining masculinity. I would further agree that you cant define it by men are better at business, etc.
How about Masculinity defends the honor of women, fight (not literally) for Justice, treats one another with respect, stands up to inquity, and has character in every situation.
Of course these can cross the gender line...but there is a difference between men and women and they way they react to situations.
Oh of course it is "juvenile" that every man doesnt want to spend their time reading history books, debating the agenda's of politicians, and the truth behind the war on Iraq. Of course it is "juvenile" to actually want to sit back and relax and watch bloopers of Nascar, football, baseball, etc. Of course it is "juvenile" to actually go some where and get help to the deeper issues of life.
What is so hard for you to accept that men and women are radically different and dont think the same, dont react the same, dont make decisions the same, and cant be reached the same?
All Godmen is trying to do is one is to define what a Christian man looks like and to help men be victorious in the issues that men face.
I think you are the one that needs to grow up.
Oh of course it is "juvenile" that every man doesnt want to spend their time reading history books, debating the agenda's of politicians, and the truth behind the war on Iraq.
See, this is a great example of your faulty logic. I never said anything of the sort. I am a huge football fan and even play video games occasionally. But to suggest that watching car crashes is part of delving into the "deeper issues of life" is simply moronic. Especially when you posit that it is a manly attribute to like these things.
I don't accept that men and women are radically different because I am not convinced that it is true. You assert your beliefs (and godmen's) that men and women are true, and then claim that the rest of us won't accept the truth. But it is just an assertion on your part. The women I hang out with fight injustice and have my back on every turn. Just as do my male friends.
No where did I say that watching nascar, football, etc is the way to delve into deeper life.
You so mischaracterize anything.
Oh yeah...one of the great contributions of the feminist movement...there is no difference between male and female besides their reproductive organs...
Rocket science I am sure...I mean hell why have fathers then? I mean besides the obvious fact that you need their reproductive parts. I am sure that the reason 80% of criminals that are in jail had no father has nothing to do with gender differences...since there are none.
I see that you purposefully didnt take into account that I said some of that crosses the gender lines.
Of course it is "juvenile" to actually want to sit back and relax and watch bloopers of Nascar, football, baseball, etc. Of course it is "juvenile" to actually go some where and get help to the deeper issues of life.
Hmm. Go to watch bloopers and get help in the deeper issues of life. Gotcha.
Nope, I understood you that some crosses gender lines. But perhaps you can tell me exactly how men and women respond differently. What is the difference?
You are married right?
There is a period there...which separates the 2 comments. Making them 2 separate thoughts.
You are married right?
Yep, for nearly 20 years.
There is a period there...which separates the 2 comments. Making them 2 separate thoughts.
Well, not actually. Usually, a paragraph is coherent so one sentence following another is connected. But if you say so.
Streak,
Greetings!
I've been away for a while and I'm commenting from my father-in-law's computer. Just found this tidbit for your consideration.
It costs between $5,001 and $10,000 to book Brad Stine.
Yep Tony. Do you have a job? Do you make a living with a talent that God has given you?
Brad is a professional comedian and that is how he makes his living so what is the issue with that?
Tony, good to hear from you. I assumed you were on the road.
Thanks for the tidbit. Good to know how much it is going to cost to get him for my next party! :)
Sorry streak...dont have an english degree and it was never my strength.
Of course it is "juvenile" to actually want to sit back and relax and watch bloopers of Nascar, football, baseball, etc.
Of course it is "juvenile" to actually go some where and get help to the deeper issues of life.
Of course it is "juvenile" to actually want to sit back and relax and watch bloopers of Nascar, football, baseball, etc.
Yes it is. Not that there is anything wrong with that occasionally. And that wasn't really my point. I do juvenile things a lot. But I am also not combining them with some kind of "find your inner man child" event.
Of course it is "juvenile" to actually go some where and get help to the deeper issues of life.
Nope, nothing wrong with that. I am not sure you will get that from the great Brad Stine, but who knows.
Now, since I have only been married for 19 and a half years, perhaps you can enlighten me on the differences between me and my spouse and how those are determined by gender.
So in your 19 years of marriage you have noticed nothing that separates you besides your parts?
Just a statement of fact, John. No caprice intended.
Tony...sorry...what is a caprice?
I meant there was no malcontent or meanness intended in my comment; just a statement of the fact that it costs that much to have Brad Stine booked as a professional speaker.
yep it does. I was dubious of your intent of bringing it up. But I am glad you cleared it up for me.
No problem. Keeping it real.
:)
So in your 19 years of marriage you have noticed nothing that separates you besides your parts?
Of course there are differences. What is not clear is what is determined by gender. I thought from your comments that the differences are clear--that women respond, what did you say.. that women respond differently than men to situations? how so? In what manner do they respond differently?
Yes, my wife responds differently than I do to certain things--but is that because she is female? Or because she is a different personality. I get the feeling that Godmen is based in the notion that those differences can be identified, and as such, the group can ward off certain feminine values being valued more than male ones. What exactly are those differences?
No problem. Keeping it real.
:)
I can dig it.
I am saving my money to hire Tony for my next gig. I understand he can be bought for a Venti Starbucks MochaSomething. :)
Out of curosity...have you watched the piece done by night line? It is available on the web.
what nightline piece? On the differences between men and women?
No on the Godmen. If you want something on the gender differences there was one done by Time or Newsweek magazine.
If you would like to see what Good Morning America and Nightline has too say check it out.
http://www.godmen.org/news.htm
Just so you know there are gender differences in learning, in the diagnosis of ADHD, emotionally, etc
that is in that article...I am looking for it now.
OK, but aspects such as ADD aare related to sex-differences, not gender differences. Sex is innate and biological, while gender is a cultural construct. For example, men have the same body parts from culture to culture. Masculinity, what it means to be male in a particular culture, is defined by that culture. These are not the same thing and the differences are important.
ubub, fair enough...so does anyone disagree that there are sexual differences do to the chemical, biological, and mental make of the male verse the female?
sorry...due to the chemical, biological, and mental make up of males verse females?
In my mind there is more that separates me and my wife than our parts.
I think it's generally accepted that there are chemical and other differences. The meaning and value of those differences are the contested ground.
Even so, when sorting any population along a single measure, such as sex (in the biological sense), there is still more diversity within the category (in this case, male or femaile) than between.
I know neither you nor your wife, but I am sure there are clear and important differences due to upbringing, educational experiences, individual personality traits, etc.
Where are you going with this, FP?
The Article is called "The Boy Crisis" by newsweek...not a conservative publication. Here is a link to part of the story. I am having difficulties getting teh whole thing.
http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/story/01-22-2006/0004264889&EDATE=
The Newsweek article aside, how do you determine what is gender determined? When you and your Godmen get together, you have a clear idea of what men are supposed to be and what women are supposed to be. How do you determine that?
When I nurture a young relative, is that a female tendency or am I still acting male? If I share my feelings? If I connect to people at an emotional level?
What do you all talk about?
Well lets start here streak. First I dont determine the difference between men and women based off that article.
Second, lets assume (which is dangerous I know) that we agree that pornography is a vile and evil thing. Now do you think you could openly and honestly discuss with a female the lure and pull of pornography?
Now what we talk about.
1. Loving our wives as Christ loved the Church.
2. Talking openly about how men deal with pornography which isnt honoring our wives.
3. How to be the husbands and fathers God desires us to be.
4. How to stand up against evil in a Godly way.
5. Making church more acceptable to men without comprising the message of the Gospel.
So I would love to see where we are wrong in wanting to do these things...especially from Tony
So your entire movement is based in the idea that women are less interested in porn? Is that the sum total of the difference between the genders?
Nowhere have you or any of the other men's movement people explained how church is inhospitable to men. What virtues about the church are anti-men? When am I using a feminine virtue and when is it masculine?
Standing up to evil is a good thing. Has nothing to do with gender, but it is a good thing. I am also a fan of loving wives, but also about wives loving and honoring husbands. Something about equality, I think.
The movement of Godmen is based on that though men and women are equal, they are equally differnt and have totally different needs. So they desire to minister to men the way men need it and also with issues that men deal with on a greater level than women...i.e. pornography.
Women are less interested in pornography then men. One of the topics is about Men dealing with the issue of pornography which is utlimate slap in the face to feminism, but I dont hear much from the feminist's railing about the evils of pornography.
Seriously, are you only going to talk about porn here?
they are equally differnt and have totally different needs.
Ok. What are they? If we concede the evils of pornography, can you identify how women's different needs and responses actually impact daily life?
And if men are in danger of wussification, what constitutes that? Does that mean acting like a woman?
A example of the disparity in churches.
Mothers day women are honored (which they should be) and put up in front and told how great they are (which they are)!
Fathers day men are shamed and told how they have to do a better job at being husbands, fathers, being more sensitive, etc
Pick 25 churches that do podcast and see what was preached on fathers day verse mothers day.
Ok.
But you still haven't explained how men and women respond differently. Except for porn.
Ok dude obviously you didnt read I listed off like 5 or 6 things and you pick one?
How does my wife respond differently than me that is driven by gender?
You have not answered anything close to that. And I am beginning to suspect that you don't have a clue.
Streak I can line it all out for you and it really wont make a difference because obviously you and your wife are so similar in everything minus your reproductive organs that it cant be the truth.
Differences in men in women...
1. Emotional verse logical thought processes. In my experience in counseling, married life, dating, etc men often relay facts and women relay feelings.
2. Men are visually stimulated (hence the bigger problem with porn) and women are emotionally stimulated.
3. Biblically it is interesting men are never told to respect their wives and wives are never told to love their husbands. It is showing us the difference between men and women.
So I would love to see where we are wrong in wanting to do these things...especially from Tony
I don't recall ever saying the Godmen were wrong in these things, John. And further, why are you baiting me?
Baiting???
No bait my friend...but since it came out in the conversation about the type of things we talk about and how much of an issue you had with them I wanted to see what you thought.
No, the real truth is that you guys are stuck in a superficial construct of the differences. Hey, I agree that there are differences, but the ones you list (emotion v. logic) are frankly at the most simplistic level. That is what I feared was going on with the Godmen, and you have confirmed it.
Seriously, you have really performed a service here. You have confirmed what most of us feared, that your basic assumptions were that women were more emotional and men more rational--which is exactly how people viewed the genders a hundred years ago (remember women aren't good for business or politics?). But you and the Stinester haven't evolved beyond that very basic stereotype.
With all due respect, we don't really have much more to talk about. You haven't thought about what it means to be male any more than those kids who gay-bait the young men who don't conform to their assumptions. You haven't thought about it more than "women are emotional and men rational." That is the sum total of the Godmen experience. Oh, and the porn.
Pass. And perhaps it is time for you to move on.
Again, John, I never said that any emphasis on those things were wrong. My issues were not with any emphasis they may have placed on marriages, relationships, etc., oh, and maybe avoiding pornography, but with the faulty constructs imposed.
And yes, you were baiting me. Stupid me for biting.
Could be that I just used those as entry points but your arrogant ass couldnt see beyond that.
Notice that in my time here where I saw something that I could possibly be wrong I came out said I had never seen it that way. Notice you have never even came close to admitting even once you were wrong.
Your arrogance blinds you. Your arrogance makes you automatically right. Your arrogance gives you the right to presume as you just have that, that is all the thought I have put into that. Your arrogance has made it where even one doesnt agree with you, that you have nothing to gain from them. Your arrogance is such that only people who agree with you are welcome.
Wow, tony I thought that maybe you had moved passed your judgmental attitude with me. What is it with you guys on these blogs you assume that you know what is in someones heart?
Oh just another thing. I notice that streak in all of his historical wisdom and knowledge still has not enlightened us with what it is to be masculine? Or has blessed us with his infinite knowledge of how in reality that there is no difference between men and women besides a penis and a vagina.
Oh please your most excellent and all knowing one enlighten us with your unsurpassed arrogance
Oh by the way...what is gay-baiting? I am not familiar with that concept.
Also notice Streak in all of his knowledge missed the other 2 points.
2. Men are visually stimulated (hence the bigger problem with porn) and women are emotionally stimulated.
3. Biblically it is interesting men are never told to respect their wives and wives are never told to love their husbands. It is showing us the difference between men and women.
Lastly, you asked FP what he thought...not what Godmen thought.
I answered your questions about masculinity several times. You just didn't like the answer. It is culturally defined. I asked you repeatedly if me acting emotional was a feminine virtue or masculine--or if my wife makes a cold-hearted business decision--is she being more man that woman?
Look, I don't mean to be mean here. I really don't. I even watched Brad Stine on Youtube just to get a little flavor. I still think there is no depth here. There is nothing beyond the superficial and generalizations. Women don't like porn, and men are less emotional. Unless, of course, they are trained as boys not to be emotional (boys don't cry else they get called girls--or if they are older, they are accused of acting gay (gay-baiting)) then it is just more cultural training. Young girls are trained from birth not to be aggressive or openly hostile--ergo reinforcing assumptions that men are more aggressive.
Doesn't mean there aren't differences, it just suggests that they aren't as simple as you and Mr. Stine suggest. It means that there are so many variables and impulses that create our psycho-sexual identity, that some simplistic "boys want to rip the heads off dolls," and "girls imagine their wedding from birth" just doesn't quite get us to any deeper understanding. You suggested that Godmen tried to do that. I am suggesting that to do so will require something beyond "men like porn" and "women are soft and emotional." Unless you want to be trapped in the 19th century.
Seriously, you can consider me an arrogant ass all you want. But that doesn't make you and Brad Stine insightful. And it really begs the question again of what you want to accomplish here.
John,
Why is what I said judgmental? Are you not now judging my heart? I simply called you out on baiting me, which I don't know, perhaps the blog admin can clear that up...it sure looks like a bait.
So I would love to see where we are wrong in wanting to do these things...especially from Tony
Perhaps I am naive or just plain stupid. To be clear (again), I never said anything that could be construed as negative toward those things that you say Godmen stands for. If they do stand for those things, praise the Lord. If they are reaching some men, praise the Lord. If they are in some way helping some men to lead more Christlike lives, praise the Lord. But forgive me if I reject the packaging.
Because it wasnt meant as a bait. So even though I said it wasnt you judged that it was. I am just taking you at your word.
Next, I never said you said anything negatives about their values. I wanted to see if you disagreed with those values...in our previous conversation you never mentioned that you didnt like their packaging.
Oh hey streak...for the record
I have read every article you have linked on the blogs I have been on.
How many of the ones I have posted have you read?
OK, it wasn't meant as a bait. Whatever.
And no, I do not disagree with those values. Like I said, if that is what they stand for, praise the Lord.
The packaging is wholeheartedly what I disagree with; Nascar crashes, martial arts displays, etc. as "real" maleness, the assumption that all men like it, and that it imposes an artificial construct on gender, one that really is detached from reality. I really do not see how you could draw any other conclusion from our previous conversations.
And I would also like to know just what you are hoping to accomplish.
BTW, I actually think that "boy crisis" has some merit. What you probably miss from feminist men like me, is that part of what we stand for is because of our concern for the bias against women. But part of it is because we recognize what such superficial masculinity does to men. It encourages men to value sports over other pursuits. It especially encourages little boys to do so. It encourages men to lock up their feelings and act stoic. The John Wayne model.
I think if you look beneath the surface on this--or on your world view, you will find a more complex one under there. One where gender, race and religion are more complex and interesting.
I actually hope you find what you are looking for. I am just not sure that our discussions are going to do that or actually interest anyone else either. Perhaps it is time you move on.
Tony, that isnt all they do but since you and others have refused to even research or read the links I have provided you wouldnt know. For example at the last Godmen event they brought in Michael Brewer a man that lived a gay lifestyle for many years and has been set free for the last 15 years to talk to the men in 2 areas. One how men struggling with homosexuality can see other men embrace them and help them overcome this sin (which to me is no better and no worse than lying, stealing, having sex with a woman who isnt your wife, having sex before you are married).
Two to show the men who dont struggle in that area how those who do need them to surround them and help them.
Next, you didnt see when they were in Daytona, Florida and they brought in from a drug and alchol rehab center a ton of guys to help them in their addiction with those things.
You didnt see that they brought in CEO Joe Greene to talk about managing money and bringing the gospel to your workplace.
You know for you guys always complaining about people generalizing liberals, etc...you sure have done it with Godmen.
My point here. Pretty clear...you and streak invited me here by your blog which is super easy to find...google alert shows me every time people mention it.
So my purpose is too show the guys that just come and look at the blogs the otherside to these stories. I have already had someone come and talk with me from TN who saw this blog. So I know that is taking place.
Streak maybe you will realize that it isnt necessarily a bad thing to lock up emotions for a time. The Bible tells us there is a time and a season for everything. Maybe you will eventually realize that God created men and women to be equal, but yet equally different and not just physically. Maybe you will realize that you have done the very thing you hate about the hyper-masculinity thing...you have generalized the Godmen and me by thinking that we encourage men to pursue sports over other pursuits. Maybe you will realize that there is nothing new under the sun...and if it is new it probably isnt true.
FYI John Wayne isnt my role model...
BTW you still have defined masculinty
Check out the news...the Mid-west is getting hammered by "xtreme weather"
so much for global warming this winter.
BTW...another generalization you and others are making is that sports are to be identified with the hyper-masculine stuff.
What is wrong if a young man or woman wants to pursue a career as a professional soccer player or football or basketball or any other sports.
I value sports. I was a professional athlete. I have also started 3 different businesses, I have a college degree, working on a Masters degree, have a wonderful family with 2 boys and 1 little girl, etc
So your generalization doesnt work with me.
Another thought I just had...why dont I see any conversation here about women being more masculine? I mean if men have to be more like women, then doesnt seem to reason that women should be more like men?
I mean when was the last time we heard that women need to get in touch with their masculine side?
Ok.
You have made your point. Not terribly consistently, but you have made your point.
Enough.
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